Graeme Smith 00:13
Welcome to the Little Red Podcast which brings you China from beyond the Beijing beltway. I’m Graeme Smith from the Australian National University’s Department of Pacific Affairs. And I’m joined by my co-host, Louisa Lim, former China correspondent for the BBC and NPR, now with the Center for Advancing Journalism at Melbourne University. We’re on air thanks to support from the Australian Centre on China in the World.
Louisa Lim 00:36
This month, we’re following up on last month’s episode about Chinese scam syndicates, which are now being called a global security crisis. A $3 trillion industry employing 300,000 people in Southeast Asia in a form of modern slavery. And we’re going to hear from inside these scam camps. Our guest is someone who contacted us after hearing the last episode, Neo Lu, who spent seven months in 2022 trapped inside an online labor scam camp on the Myanmar-Thailand border. Neo, and I understand this is not your real name, that we’re using a pseudonym, and you chose Neo because of the matrix. First of all, thank you so much for reaching out to us. Tell us your story of how you ended up entrapped in this compound guarded by armed men in Myanmar.
Neo Lu 01:35
Oh, it’s my honor to be invited to the podcast, and I have to say this, long time listener and first-time caller, I’m afraid. And for my pseudonym, I decided to disclose my real name at this moment, Yihao Lu, and, of course, aka Neo Lu. And, okay, back to your question. I was in Dubai for a while, and I decided to get some job. And it was a job opportunity in Thailand. The title was English and to Chinese translator. So I took the job and did not suspecting or expecting anything out of ordinary, so to speak. And then I went to Thailand. So right after I get out of the airport, I was loaded into a van and then travelled half day to the border town. And it was my last moment, if I was aware what I was about to face to rescue myself, but I missed that opportunity to spend the night in that hotel at the border town. Then the second morning, I was trafficked into Burma, alongside with two other individuals, one is another Chinese national, and another is Kenya female.
Louisa Lim 03:03
What was the point at which you realized that you were kind of trapped?
Neo Lu 03:07
It was the moment the SUV which were, you know, transporting three of us to some really rural area, you know, just some derelict and not populated [area]. And the moment that driver, you know, pull over, stopped at the roadside and asking us, you know, not asking us, but more like a signaling us, because the driver cannot speak English. Or maybe he can speak English, but he chose not to. But signaling us to get out of the vehicle. And once I get out of the vehicle, I spotted it was, it was just some rural area. I was panicking at the moment. What had I gotten myself into?
Graeme Smith 04:00
A long way from Dubai. I mean, in, could you maybe describe what the compound looked like, to us? I mean, one thing that strikes me reading your account is sort of the obvious criminality. I mean, there’s, there’s drugs on offer, there’s kind of, you know, built-in brothels. I mean, what was the compound like? Is it like anything you’d ever seen before?
Neo Lu 04:19
It looks like some, some shabby, shabby industrial zone in China. I had, you know, visited, you know, because back in China, I was working with the supply chain, so to speak. I was working for a medical device manufacturer, supplying some NASDAQ-listed medical tycoon in US. So, I was visiting lots of industrial compounds. So, the Dongmei camp, so to speak, the Dongmei camp, which was in which was the camp enslaved me. It was just like a very low, low, low level, very shabby industrial park with insufficient funds, so to speak.
Louisa Lim 05:03
And talk us through what you had to do once you were there. How did they put you to work?
Neo Lu 05:10
Oh, the first day and the second day were really interesting and intense, I would say, because you see, the first day was literally the afternoon I was waiting in the eight-bed dormitory, just waiting there. And some senior, or let’s say middle level management, came over and asked me to surrender all my electronic devices. And I did. And after that, you know, throughout some conversation, he was trying to learn, or at least fathom my, let’s say education level, or my skills, my skills in typing. And why is, why is that he was doing that? He was going through my, electric, let’s say cell phones, browsing history or chat history to see if I had reached out to any authority, so to speak, or my family, friends, outsiders, to call for help. Okay, and it was the first day. And after the first, let’s say acquaintance, they just took all my electronic devices and leave me in that room because it was a working day to them. And then I believe, you know, behind me, they were just go through all the chat history to see if I do possess the skills of typing and to see if I am eloquent enough to handle this pig butchering scheme or something like that.
Louisa Lim 06:52
Maybe we should just explain what pig butchering is. So, pig butchering, these pig butchering schemes are called that because they rely on scammers. How do you say it, reeling in targets and fattening them up by talking to them over long periods of time before they cheat them?
Neo Lu 07:11
Well, if, if I have the option, I would call it a romance scam. It’s just, you know, establishing, trying to establish a relationship or friendship via the internet, and gain, the trust then just, just cash in whatever way they see fit.
Louisa Lim 07:32
Your scam compound was mainly or all romance scams?
Neo Lu 07:35
This cartel specializing in this Chinese-language based romance scam or pig butchering scam. But other cartel operating in the same compound, the Dongmei camp, I won’t be able to say that. But some of those scammers, or my ex co-workers, my ex co-workers, did share some information with me. They were telling me that one of major cartel organization in the compound is specializing in putting out English scams. But I do not know which type it could be.
Louisa Lim 07:35
So, there’s more than one scam compound, more than one scam group in one compound?
Neo Lu 08:07
Yes, correct.
Graeme Smith 08:10
And your scam? I mean, it was very specific. You were targeting women between the ages of 30 and 50, and usually married women as well. Can you explain why they were the target?
Neo Lu 08:34
The script is targeting some women during that age period, because any underage over that 30-year-old should be less financially stable, which means that they got little to no money to invest [in] those bogus investments. And if we are looking at someone like at 60 years or even older than that, they would not be that tech savvy to follow the instruction of the scammer, to install, to download and install those, those malicious malware, because from time to time, you will encounter some victim that they do possess, some made in China self and they got some backdoors. You know, backdoors security firms installed, banning any application outside of those whitelisted apps installation so the scammer have to hand to hand to guide those victim to bypass those security measures. And it is really difficult for them to ask those senior citizens, senior victim to do that. And by the end of the day, they invest a lot of time in, you know, establishing that relationship.
Louisa Lim 10:06
That basically, old people are too bad at tech to get scammed?
Neo Lu 10:10
Well, I well, I can’t say that but yes, but yes, I’m sorry.
Graeme Smith 10:16
Which is, which is hilarious, because our normal view of scamming is that it is something that old people fall for, but, but, yeah, not in every case.
Neo Lu 10:24
Not in every case. And why female, and especially married and estranged female? Chinese society, or at least the society in China, is quasi-conservative, and the people married for financial causes instead of, you know, just out of love or something like that. So, if we are looking at some elder citizens’ marriage, they are not happy or something like that, because it’s just a financial collaboration, so to speak. Therefore, a charming, a charming prince came to a middle life female’s failed marriage life, and you know, you know what’s going to happen next.
Louisa Lim 10:48
So Neo, you weren’t actually scamming people, were you? You were working as an accountant, tracking the money flows, and I was really interested in the fact that you found that, looking at the statistics, you were able to deduce that one in ten people who the scammers reached out to responded. That seems really high?
Neo Lu 11:41
I would say it’s not high. The ratio of passing through that friend request is not high, or at least not high enough in the eye of the senior member. Because if you are going to use WeChat to send out a friend request, you will hit the quota. Because if you are sending out, let’s say, five requests a day from one WeChat account, Tencent may rule these actions as a suspicious action. They will just ban it, okay, and it will be very expensive for the scam organizers to bear such cost.
Graeme Smith 12:26
And that’s one thing that really interests me about this, is that a lot of the cost and a lot of, I guess, the profit, is the platforms that these women are on in the first place, particularly WeChat and Alipay and the data brokers who are, you know, basically buying the data from these companies. I mean, is part of the problem that these social media platforms sell their users data?
Neo Lu 12:48
Yes, correct. And you are overlooking one thing, which is you have to understand that this WeChat is a Chinese-based platform, okay, but if you are looking at some English-based scam you are not using WeChat. It literally means the cost of running operation will be reduced dramatically. Because, to my understanding, and based on my statistical deduction, the cost-to-profit ratio is around 100 percent to 120 percent, give or take. Yeah. However, when it comes to the English-based scam, I was told by one of the senior member of the organization, the Chinese-based scam was not that costly ten years ago. It was a give or take a 200 percent but again, that’s their words. They are trying to reinvent themselves to invest in the English-based scam because it is cheaper and it is easier to dodge Chinese government’s hunt. Okay? And they were saying the English scam should be, you know, cost-effective or more lucrative, just like the Chinese scam ten years ago.
Louisa Lim 14:08
Let’s talk a bit about the human trafficking side of it. A United Nations report says that more than 120,000 people have been forced to work in Myanmar. And there’s even a Chinese film called No More Bets [孤注一掷] about Chinese people trafficked to work in a scam group in Southeast Asia. And I think we can play a bit of the trailer.
Neo Lu 14:33
Just before you play the trailer, I am, I am in the film too, as well, not in the film itself, but I was in the trailer and in the documentary session.
Louisa Lim 14:47
Okay, let’s listen to a bit of the trailer.
Clip 14:49
想成功，先发疯 If you want to succeed, first go crazy
不顾一切向钱冲 Rush for the cash, ignore all distractions
拼一次富三代 Struggle once, and you’ll be rich for three generations
拼命才能不失败 If you give your all, you will not fail
开工！Start work!
炒股，挖币，网游，电商，博彩。。。美女荷官，在线发牌
Stock trading, crypto mining, online games, e-commerce, online gambling… our beautiful croupiers host online betting
Louisa Lim 15:11
What kind of people were caught up in the scam with you, what kind of people were trafficked and were living in that compound?
Neo Lu 15:19
I had some encounters with those self-claimed victim inside of it. One of them is like in his 20-year-old. His nickname is Adam, Adam, and he was saying he was from some rural area of China. And I would say he is around the 20-year-old, ish, something like that. And he was saying it is his first time to get out of China. And he got no idea why he ended up in this compound.
Graeme Smith 15:57
It’s interesting, because when you arrived there, they made fun of you as the college boy, and the image I have is that they try to get college boys because they’re obviously more articulate and better at scamming. But it sounds like maybe that wasn’t the case.
Neo Lu 16:10
Because, to me, if, if I could get rid of those moral, let’s say standard or moral compass for a while. Let’s just focusing on the business, business gains, so to speak, or at least, I am an employee for my whole life. And from my point of view, doing scam is not really a good job money-wise. Because you see, if I was picturing myself as a bookkeeper, I have to work 100 hours per week, and got one day off per month. Yeah, to earn 10,000 Chinese yuan, one quarter of my current job’s hourly rate, okay, I don’t need to do that. And if I do have the skills what I need to present myself as some sort of salesperson, to be fair, scamming is just like doing sales.
Louisa Lim 16:10
It’s a peculiar setup, isn’t it, though? Because they did pay you, even though they held you captive.
Neo Lu 17:18
I understand there are some good old classic slavery happened in America. I do believe at the time, slavers do pay those slaves salaries. But it doesn’t mean it is not slavery at all. They have to keep the slaves motivated to do their daily job, to do whatever they were told to do. And I believe the salary is just a means to keep them motivated.
Graeme Smith 17:56
And is there a possibility, like, if you really, you know, work wholeheartedly, appear to be transformed into a scammer. Is there any scope for a change in your status, or is it just simply a case of once a slave, always a slave? I mean, can you gain their trust and become literally a proper part of the management?
Neo Lu 18:18
I will say it’s more like if we have the opportunity, because if some middle level or senior level personnel decide to leave or decided to escape, okay. And if and they were succeeding in doing that, then they need to promote someone out of those team to certain levels. But I was told by more than one middle level personnel who are involved, who are directly involved in scamming people. They were telling me if someone could be promoted to middle level, so to speak, it will become… They are definitely considered to be one of themselves, one of them. Because the scam, the lot they are involved with, should be humongous. Okay, there’s no turning back for them, regardless whether they were enslaved in first place, or they, if they voluntarily joined the scam industry in first place. There’s no turning back for them. So therefore, those senior member would know that they will not, let’s say they will not be some undercover or they will not be the one who talk to the cops if shit hits the fan.
Graeme Smith 19:45
Yeah. And so get to get back to the movie. I mean, is it in any way realistic? I know you’re in the trailer and you’re in the documentary, but does it realistically portray the industry? Because reading your accounts, what strikes me is the mundanity of it all. Yeah, I mean, even the boss Xi Ge 喜哥comes across as sort of a little bit sad really, you know, like he’s, he’s just a boring guy worried about profit and loss.
Neo Lu 20:09
Well, well, you have to understand, it is a for-profit film. It is not documentary and I was told by the crew member. Okay, I was told by a crew member, so [the] movie had been sitting for four years not getting clearance to go box office four years, okay? And the version you have watched is censored, is modified. And I would not criticize it for not doing this industry or doing someone like me the victim justice. Because, well, you know the power those bigger powers, those greater powers, are in the play. But let’s, let’s back to something less abstract, some glamorous US dollars, so swashing around things like that. I mean, it varies. Different cartel got different way to incentivize those scammers. For instance, the one I have been with, they will do because you have to understand that is a like, WeWork open space. Yeah, WeWork open space. So, you have, you could see, like, 70 people crammed into one room. And those fans and those ACs are, you know, swashing around, and there is some big loudspeaker playing some cheesy music at the background. And whenever they said, “okay, we are making some gains, we make a mark.” And as they will turn the volume down and stand up say, “Let’s make a congratulation to Mr. Neo. He’s just, his client, his client just make a top up of 20,000 Chinese yuan and…” People (clapping noise).
Louisa Lim 22:12
That’s exactly like real estate sales in China. If you buy an apartment, that’s what happens in the hall. They like ring a bell and everyone cheers.
Neo Lu 22:21
Well, yes, I guess I mean some, and I saw some clips in those Street News Channel. Some, some, some compound would even fire up some flares, firecrackers in celebration of some big scores. In a movie, well, they have to make it dramatic. So, I won’t be able to say if it really happened, but something like that definitely happened in the compound.
Louisa Lim 22:49
I was really interested in the way in which you have brought out a lot of information with you, and quite forensically as well, and including information about money flows. You found that you tracked that in five months, your syndicate had made $4.4 million from 214 victims. Do you know what then happened up the chain to that money?
Neo Lu 23:15
To be fairly honest, I won’t be able to say that, because you see, well, for those low-level scammers, they will be paid in Thailand Baht cash. And for those, for those, uh, middle level and the senior level, they will be paid in USDT, the cryptocurrency.
Graeme Smith 23:38
Just to be clear, that’s Tether you’re talking about there, yeah?
Neo Lu 23:42
Yes, USDT, not a single dime of the real US dollars involved.
Graeme Smith 23:47
Fascinating, yeah, because there was a study done of pig butchering, and it found that more than four fifths of the money from pig butchering scams went into Tether, and that seems to back up what you’re saying.
Neo Lu 23:59
Well, unfortunately, yes, the scammer would direct that victim to top up in some bogus investment application via the assistance of the customer service. So, on one end, the customer service will inform and will change the bogus investment account to the money they topped up and then inform the victim, okay, transaction complete, top up, complete. And on the other hand, the third-party carders will calculate the cost of money laundering. Usually it will, it will be 20 percent of the so-called, the top of the funds will go to the money laundering pocket. And the rest of the value will be converted into USDT and it will be paid to the scam cartel by the end of every working day, which is midnight. My job in the money laundering was just recording those scores, so to speak, to make sure that the money launderer or the carders are not underpaying the cartel. They usually will do some multiple layering to make sure the funds is no longer traceable. Or, they would just ask some driver, it should be a jargon, driver, to cash it out in some ATM machine. Different scam type got a different risk, because the pig butchering risk imposes less risk of victim come to the realization, okay, they got scammed and they are going to call the police: “I had made the transaction. Please freeze the card.” And the risk of getting card frozen will be represented in the cost of money laundering. The higher risk of getting frozen, the higher cost of money laundering, the carder will impose onto the scam cartel.
Louisa Lim 26:17
Okay, so what you’re saying is, as a romance scammer, you scam money from people, and then it goes to a third-party money launderer in China that makes it untraceable. People inside the scam compound are getting paid. They’re getting paid small amounts in Baht or in cryptocurrency called Tether, but still, the bosses are pulling in lots of money. Did you have any indication of what they’re doing with that? Or is that sort of drugs and other things on the side, or what is happening to those millions?
Neo Lu 26:57
Oh, little correction, the scam cartel will be paid in USDT from by the money laundering group, but they are not going to be paid in Thailand Baht. And they could just exchange the USDT to Thailand Baht if the cartel want to do that. So back to the USDT, let’s say distribution or disposition, so to speak. The cartel boss or the senior member of the cartel, they would spend the UDST, the hard earned USDT, on drugs, women and other debaucheries, so to speak. One of the major, let’s say, event, or the benefit, as a senior member is the outing, you know, hang out in other specialized casino outside of Dongmei camp. Okay, they got some trips to the outside casino. They spend money, just have some some fun there. And I was told the one of middle level, okay, team leader level escaped during that occasion, during that outing, yeah. And I told the Chinese police as well, but they did not find that person.
Louisa Lim 28:20
Neo in the file of material that you sent us, there was some really harrowing videos showing you being tortured, and you’re being tortured by someone with an electric stun gun. How did this come about?
Neo Lu 28:37
It’s, again it’s a long story, because at the beginning of incarceration in that torture chamber, I was given the opportunity to say, to say, I am willing to become a scammer instead. At the moment, they are aware that I was reaching out to the New York Times, and they were giving me the opportunity to be a scammer, but I refused. I told them, I want out. I want out. I want to pay the ransom. But of course, they did not label that ransom as ransom. They call it “compensation”.
Louisa Lim 29:16
How much money were they asking for?
Neo Lu 29:18
Well, initially they are not willing to disclose the amount, but once I told them, I just want to leave, they told me half million Chinese yuan. 70,000 US dollars, give or take. And I would mention I would put a note on it, my initial ransom was 30 US dollars back in June 2022.
Louisa Lim 29:45
30,000?
Neo Lu 29:46
Yes, yeah, but they ramped it up to 70,000 US dollars in January 2023.
Louisa Lim 29:54
Why did they torture you? What was the purpose?
Neo Lu 29:57
I believe it, because I had emphasized that I just want out. I just want to, I just want my family to pay the ransom. So, at the very moment I told them I need to pay the ransom, they start torturing. Because I do believe it is more like a SOP to them, to be fairly honest. SOP, standard operation procedure, to them. If any person decided to reach out to outsiders, outside of the compound, for rescue, for release, and especially paying the ransom, they have to pull out some punishment onto them and let the hostage to talk to their to talk to their family, to make it real. And I believe it is the whole purpose of all the torture. But to be fairly honest, just like what you mentioned before, it’s like, it’s just like a day job. It’s so banal to them, it’s, you know, by the moment, I told them, I just want out, they just start torture on the same night.
Louisa Lim 31:08
So they sent those videos to your father?
Neo Lu 31:11
Yes, but before sending them, it was like five days, five days of electric shock and beating up. So, before that, before that, I already suffered a lot of lot, but they were not recorded, and they were not sent. The electric shock is just one-third of the torture the night they recorded, but it was never sending through. So sorry, it’s just the, all the visual material I got. I mean, I wish they could. They did send it through, because it could help me a lot.
Louisa Lim 31:48
What was the purpose of torturing you for five days? If it’s not for a ransom video?
Neo Lu 31:54
They could just let me talk to my family with my utmost, I don’t know, regret, or my utmost genuinety, I know how sure if I should put this way. So, I could tell my family with such urgency, because I don’t really want to be tortured. Nobody wants to get tortured. So, I could just say, tell my family what happened in real time. If I do not get the money, if you did not send the ransom, okay, I will get beaten tomorrow again.
Graeme Smith 32:27
So, you’re sending them messages as you’re being tortured over these five days with increasing urgency?
Neo Lu 32:33
Yes.
Graeme Smith 32:34
After all this had happened after these torture videos, how did you know, how did your release come about? What was the process?
Neo Lu 32:41
I was collecting all those information. Just keep my head down, just like a good, loyal slave working for the cartel. But in the meantime, I was reaching out to my friend, to my family. I believe it was back in November 2022. So, I was talking to my family, if you want to get me out, okay, you have to find some person who got the connections, got the relation with the BGF, [Karen] Border Guard Force of Burma. Otherwise, nothing works. Okay, nothing works. Because if you are going to pay the cartel this sum of money, they do not have any check and balance. They could just resell me to another cartel, another human trafficker, something like that okay? To them, it is simple money. But if you could find someone, keep them in check from the BGF. They could oversee the handover, and they could ensure it could, I could be handed over, I can be released. It was early November, and then I start to talk to New York Times around December 2022 you know, smuggling all those documents out. I did not say the word, but everyone understand what does it mean? I, if I died, then those documents could see the daylight. Yeah, some, some other day, and I could be martyred. But gladly, I did not receive the martyrdom. And then, then the January, okay, it was bad luck. I went a little bit too far to talk to the boss, Brother Joy, and he sent me to the, he sent me to the torture chamber for disrespect. And I, well, I did my homework properly. I did erase all the chat history. Did erase the browser history, something like that. Every time I finished my work, you know, undercover work. But I was realizing I told my family, okay, I told my family, if they did not hear me in some consecutive days, then I asked them to just go to the police, go to the embassy. Go to anyone they can find to report my missing case or something like that. And I always come to realization that they are going to do the work on their end. Therefore, I voluntarily told the cartel on the second day of the torture chamber. I told them, “You know what? I have spoken to New York Times, I have spoken to journalists”, on the second day. And then they give me a couple day more to allow them to think over what happened to me and what they should do about me. And then they come to me, okay. They don’t know about the New York Times. They literally got no idea what the New York Times means. But they say, okay, we will give you the options. Option one, pay the ransom, or, let’s say, to pay the compensation. Option two, be a jolly scammer, because they have big plan for me. Bigger plan for me. They want me to lead some English scam they could establish in the following days of 2023. Because they see my, because they see my potential in my language skills. And I just like what I said. I chose option to… I want out. And then the torture began.
Louisa Lim 36:38
But then your family was able to make contact with someone who you call Dragon, who had links to the Burmese Border Force, and he managed to get you released?
Neo Lu 36:50
Yes, correct.
Graeme Smith 36:51
And did you ever meet this guy, or did sort of his proxies show up?
Neo Lu 36:57
Yes, I had met this person, this Dragon in my home, and he was saying, I am the only person he met. I am the only person who got rescued by him, he met. Because he was making this comment. And I think it is really fair, because those, the other unfortunate personnel who got rescued are not that… are really underprivileged. My status of being the perfect victim, or let’s say that that my effort in trying to be the perfect victim charmed him to visit me. Because he understand many of those unsuspecting souls who got rescued later on. Initially, they do have some thoughts in scamming people, or they did practice some scams during their enslavement. But in my case, as he did some due diligence in the compound, I did not scam anyone. Well, at least, I did not score anything at all. I did not participate in drug taking. And to be fairly honest, I did, I did not even try the marijuana in my days in the UK. So, so you have to understand that part. And I did not drink alcohol, I did not smoke, I did not buy in sex, and I did not gamble anything like that, something like that in the compound. So, I believe it did charm Dragon to rescue me and to visit me afterwards.
Louisa Lim 38:45
And how much did your family end up having to pay, either as compensation, ransom, or to Dragon in order to ensure that you were released?
Neo Lu 38:58
I wouldn’t be using this term pay. It’s more like a gesture of gratitude, because initially, as we all understand that we have to pay the ransom to the cartel because of those two videos, yeah, the torture videos. The BGF, get me out without paying the cartel in the first place. So, once I got released, the money was, the ransom was not paid at all. But by the end of the day, my family decided to show the gratitude to either Dragon or the BGF. And they paid 270,000 Chinese yuan by the end of the day, and the money went to BGF.
Graeme Smith 39:49
And you’re saying that the Karen BGF didn’t have to pay the scammers because these hostage videos had kind of, you know, given them a bad reputation, or wasn’t good for business is that was that the reasoning?
Neo Lu 40:02
Correct. I was told by some sources, the person who directly involved in my human trafficking who bought me from the human trafficker in the… He was sent to the barracks of BGF and being tortured for 30 days or being punished.
Graeme Smith 40:27
And one thing that surprised me, all these you know, the movies and so forth that come out portray the Chinese government as coming to save people. Did the embassy have any role at all in your release?
Neo Lu 40:37
No. The short answer is no. The long one is fucking no. Okay, let’s turn the sassiness level down. In the initial first months of enslavement, I did some research online because I had to survive in that hostile, hostile area. And I do not find any successful cases, you know, conducted by Chinese Embassy in Burma. Or at least, I did not see any any, let’s say, trustworthy or valuable news coverage in Chinese media. And then I turn my eye to English media later on, but that’s another story. Then I reach to a conclusion, which is, well, Chinese Embassy, Chinese police, are not functioning at all in this situation. And I do fear, I do fear if my parents called [the] embassy, all the embassy could do is to tell my family to call the Burmese cop. All they need to do is it’s calling the BGF personnel, whoever is managing that compound. “Oh, one of your guys is reporting to Chinese Embassy claiming that this person is enslaved in your compound. You need to make the problem go away.” And all they need to do is forward that information to the cartel. Okay, this person had called. You have to get it resolved. Either release me, allow me to regain my freedom, or the cartel could just punish me up and sold me to other cartel. And then the military figure, the BGF personnel who is managing Dongmei camp, could just call the Burmese police force, “We had not found any person like that in such compound. No, it’s a false alarm.” And my report could go away easily. And then I will get punished for coming to Chinese cops or Chinese Embassy.
Graeme Smith 43:03
So Yihao, the really interesting thing that you have dug up, I think in your research, I mean forced research, if you want to call it that, is that you have found a Chinese state owned enterprise, quite a well-known one, China Railway 21, was involved in the construction of this, this Dongmei camp. And that is, I think, kind of another step, because this is a very respectable state-owned enterprise that is profiting from building a scam center in in Myanmar. I mean, how did you find that out?
Neo Lu 43:40
Oh, to be fairly honest it was readily available in the public domain. All you need to do is just Google, of course, in Chinese, Dongmei camp, and it will just pop out, pop out in no time. Because it was literally in the promotional material published by Dongmei camp itself and by some state-owned website as well. So, it’s readily available in the public domain.
Graeme Smith 44:13
And the owner of this camp, just to talk about the ultimate beneficiary, is someone we talked about in the last episode, a guy called Broken Tooth. Um, I mean, what, what, how does he benefit from this compound?
Neo Lu 44:25
Wan Kuok-koi and, uh, aka, Broken Tooth. Well, it’s, you know, it’s like bringing back some old memory of, you know, watching some Hong Kong movie in old days by just mentioning the name. Okay, so my understanding, based on the research I have done or the information readily available in the public domain, Wan Kuok-koi established the Dongmei group in Hong Kong. And it got some other associates, some high-level politicians from Malaysia, are very involved in establishing Dong Mei Zone in Myawaddy, Burma, back in 2019 to 2020. And they were investing and drawing financial support from the public, and that’s why they were doing the promotional material online.
Louisa Lim 45:23
It is interesting that that promotional material that you talk about, these companies, they have these very respectable-looking websites, these scam companies, you know, with pictures of groundbreaking ceremonies and sort of tree planting or, you know, that kind of stuff. To what extent do you think these companies are receiving protection from the Chinese state or the Myanmar regime?
Neo Lu 45:52
The China Railway 21st is a state-owned company from China, and on that front, yes, of course, it’s their own company. And if we are talking about Broken Tooth and its Dong Mei Group is which is registered, established in Hong Kong. I will say, I have no idea at this moment. Because, based on the report from the US Treasury in 2020 it gives Broken Tooth some status, but it was not confirmed, but rather denied by the Chinese government. So again, I would put a question mark on it.
Graeme Smith 46:39
And on the Myanmar side?
Neo Lu 46:40
Oh, definitely yes. And I think I did do some due diligence on the Burmese business registry, and I found a company called Dongmei, Dongmei Group, or Dongmei Company, I can’t recall. And the timing and everything is matching to the groundbreaking, and, you know, construction of that. And my understanding is it do receive the support of local BGF forces, just like what I mentioned before. The BGF forces is guarding, was guarding, and is guarding, and they will be guarding Dongmei zone for protecting them from the other military forces in the region. And I believe it is rather evident to call that the Burmese junta government is supporting such atrocity.
Louisa Lim 47:40
It’s, I mean, you seem to be taking a huge risk, to have compiled all this data, and to have contacted the N’w York Times, and to be talking to us, and to be talking so openly about this, you must have, you must have made very powerful enemies. Why are you taking this risk?
Neo Lu 47:59
Well, well, to be fairly honest, you if you take the money, then you take the beating. There’s no other way around. Well, if, let’s say, let’s do a little accounting, if Chinese scams, Burmese military and the Thailand, Thailand backers and the Thailand elite and some of bad actors in China are making big money out of my misery and others’ misery, then they shall get punished. And me, from my personal angle, I want revenge. Simple as that.
Graeme Smith 48:44
Yihao, thanks for joining us.
Neo Lu 48:45
Thank you.
Graeme Smith 48:52
You’ve been listening to the Little Red Podcast, bringing you China from beyond the Beijing beltway. Many thanks to our guest and to my co-host, Louisa Lim. We’re on air thanks to support from the Australian Centre on China in the World. Our editing is by Andy Hazel. Background research by Wing Kuang. Our music is by Susie Wilkins, and our cartoons and GIFs are courtesy of Seb Danta. Bye for now.
